Some of the most controversial teaching in the Bible is its instructions concerning wives.
Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Colossians 3:18-19
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Ephesians 5:22-33
Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
1 Peter 3:1-7
What do we do with these texts? Is this really God’s word to wives and husbands living in twenty-first century Australia? To answer that question I think we need to hear these texts in their original historical context and consider how the biblical writers are interacting with that context.
Not only the arm of the virtuous woman, but her speech as well, ought not to be for the public, and she ought to be modest and guarded about saying anything in the hearing of outsiders…For a woman ought to do her talking either to her husband or through her husband, and she should not feel aggrieved if, like the flute-player, she makes a more impressive sound through a tongue not her own… If [wives] subordinate themselves to their husbands, they are commended, but if they want to have control, they cut a sorrier figure than the subjects of their control. And control ought to be exercised by the man over the woman, not as the owner has control over a piece of property, but, as the soul colonists the body, by entering into her feelings and being knit to her through goodwill. As, therefore, it is possible to exercise care over the body without being a slave to its pleasures and desires, so it is possible to govern a wife, and at the same time to delight and gratify her.
Plutarch, Moralia: Advice to the Bride and Groom 142 C-E
A woman must live for her husband according to law and in actuality, thinking no private thoughts of her own, but taking care of her marriage and guarding it. For everything depends on it. A woman must bear all that her husband bears, whether he be unlucky or sin out of ignorance, whether he be sick or drunk or sleep with other women…If her husband thinks something is sweet she will think so too; if she thinks something bitter, she will agree. Otherwise she will be out of tune with her whole universe.
Neo-Pythagorean text
The husband governs, but the wife is governed…But he does not rule over her with a despotic power: for he is diligently attentive to her welfare…Those husbands that govern their wives despotically, are hated by them, but those that govern them with a guardian authority are despised by them…but those that govern them politically are both admired and loved.
Callicratidas, On the Happiness of Households 105.8-.106.9
The woman, says the Law, is in all things inferior to the man. Let her accordingly be submissive, not for her humiliation, but that she may be directed, for the authority has been given by God to the man.
Josephus, Against Apion 2.199
Wives must be in servitude to their husbands, a servitude not imposed by violent ill-treatment but promoting obedience in all things.
Philo, Hypothetica 7.3
This is the thought world in which the New Testament writers operate. The household of the first century Greco-Roman world was hierarchical, with the adult male firmly entrenched at the top and his wife, children and slaves below. Submission meant a woman was expected to center her life around her husband, avoid the assertion of her own desires and conform herself to her husband’s will.
When first century authors of Scripture penned their words and first century audiences heard them they do so in this context. They knew what submission to husbands meant. It meant exactly what we have outlined, that a woman would center her life around her husband, avoid the assertion of her own desires and conform herself to her husband’s will. And lest we be in any doubt, some of the texts are quite explicit. 1 Peter 3 commends Sarah, who treated Abraham as her lord and was obedient to him. Ephesians 5 says husbands are in a situation analagous to Christ and wives in a situation analagous to the church. And the church is obedient to Christ, centers its life around the will of Christ, and takes its identity from Christ.
These are difficult ideas to modern ears, so there are numerous ways we try to soften the meaning. Some point to the verse in Ephesians that immediately precedes the call for wives to submit to husbands. This calls us to “submit to one another”. There are two possible ways this could be read. First, it could be read as applying to the people in subordinate positions in the pairs that follow – “submit to one another, that is wives to husbands, children to fathers, slaves to masters”. Or it could be read as applying equally to everyone, but with the application different depending on one’s position in the household. “Husbands, submit to your wives by loving them, to your children by being patient with them, to your slaves by being fair to them. Wives submit to your husbands by obeying them in everything, children submit to your fathers by obeying them, slaves to your masters by serving them to the best of your will.” I think that the first reading is the most likely way the texts would have been read by the original audience, but either way the meaning of wifely submission remains the same.
If we believe these are God’s word to us today we need to be quite clear: we are asking husbands and wives to enter a relationship that is hierarchical in nature, with wives expected to abandon their own identity and center their every waking moment around their husband’s desires and interests, to conform their opinions to their husband’s and to obey their husband’s will.
Nor does pointing to the responsibility of husbands to love their wives with a generous and servant natured love change the reality of what is expected of wives or make them equals. This should be obvious from the use of the Christ-church analogy. Christ’s love for the church means he acts for the church’s welfare, but it does not mean he abandons his position as Lord of the church nor his expectation that the church will be obedient to him and center itself around his will.
If we are to understand what God is saying to us today I think we need to abandon attempts to soften the meaning of these texts to the point they are palatable to modern ears. Rather we need to understand what the bible writers are trying to do. As I have argued in other posts, they write pastorally. They are asking a simple question: how can the followers of Jesus to whom I write live out their faith in the concrete realities of their lives? In the first century one of those concrete realities was hierarchical household structures, where an adult male stood at the top and his wife, children and slaves were ordered below him. So the writers look for models that might be relevant. In Ephesians 5 Paul draws upon the relationship between Christ and the church. If you want to know how to live well within a hierarchical marriage structure look to the way Christ and the church relate. Husbands model yourselves on Christ; wives model yourselves on the church. When he considers slaves, he appeals to the relationship between humans and God as analagous to that between slave and master. Slaves, if you want to know how to live as a Jesus-follower, give your masters the same service you give to Christ as Master. Masters you should treat your slaves with the same dignity as your heavenly Master treats you.
The bible writers are not staking a claim that hierarchical household structures are endorsed by God. They’re simply asking how you live Christianly when hierarchical structures are what you live within. Indeed, the gospel undermines hierarchical structures by declaring we all stand on the same footing before God (Galatians 3:26-28; Colossians 3:11). It would take time, but this simple insight contributed to the overthrow of monarchy in favour of liberal democracy, of slavery in favour of freedom, and of patriarchy in favour of the liberty of women.
Thank God we live this side of that historical development. It’s high time then we got rid of the language of male headship and female submission altogether. Forget trying to reinvent it, to soften the meaning of the terms. Let us state plainly and clearly God does not call men to be the head of the household, nor does God call wives to submit to their husbands. These were part of the hierarchical marriage structures that first century Christians had to contend with but have now been swept away by history and the gospel. Let’s instead start searching for the theological models that can help us live Christianly within the egalitarian marriage structures of our time.
I believe in time society’s progress will make most of the bible’s teaching obsolete. Enjoy it while it is relevant.
Thanks marx,
Bible has remained relevant for some 2000 years and i suspect it will remain relevant as long as humankind exists, for it tells us who we are, who God is and provides an orientation to life
>Bible has remained relevant for some 2000 years
Except, of course, the parts that contradict your secular progressive philosophy.
>and i suspect it will remain relevant as long as humankind exists
Despite your best efforts to make it irrelevant…
Christopher,
It’s NO T direct translation and remember it is translated by men who were , as my priest says, if their time. God valued all human beings and the only reason why men or some men want to hang on to these archaic terms is because empowered women can intimidate some men . God gave us ALL talents and gifts regardless of gender and we ALL ave a responsibility to use them.
Such comments are AKIN to subservience on the basis of social class which is equally as ridiculous!!!!
Dear Egalitarian Friends, We know that many of you within the evangelical world hold your views because you have been convinced that egalitarianism is what the Bible teaches. You tell us that our differences on male and female roles are just differences in interpretation, and that Bible-believing Christians can honestly and fairly interpret the Bible to support complete equality in most or all roles for men and women in the family and the church. You say that you are sincere in adopting your views not because of modern cultural pressures but because you think that the Bible itself supports your… Read more »
Interesting this was never responded to. Thank you for a thoughtful study of the actual words in the text. Might we continue to pursue this mode of Bible study. Well done.
Hi Greg, Thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful response. I am an evangelical egalitarian and I agree almost completely with your critiques of the arguments that many evangelical egalitarians put (even though I find your strident confidence somewhat patronising and condescending). I am convinced the new Testament drives us towards complete gender equality, but the interpretive path I take to get there is very different to the one you are combating. When one looks at first century Greco-Roman writers there is a very clear correspondence between the expectations of men and women found in those documents and that found in… Read more »
Please explain text instructing slaves to endure harsh treatment from their master. Is slavery God’s intended mode throughout history?
I have one response to this. Under these circumstances, why would any woman in the 21st Century EVER marry a man? If your argument is that because of societal norms of ancient Israel or Ancient Greece, and because some random man who claimed he met Jesus seventy years after he died and decided he could speak for him (in case you have not guessed, I am not a big fan of Paul, at least as he is most often interpreted), that marriage today should be organized the same way, I am not seeing any benefit whatsoever for women. We are… Read more »
Carole, it sounds like you have an unhealthy view of marriage in general, and of men in particular. The hope of Christian believers is that in marriage, two people can love each other and share mutual admiration and respect of each other’s unique wisdom, intellect and, yes, gender differences the wife and husband bring into the relationship. If you find a man who wishes to use these texts and this concept as a means to establish some kind of patriarchal authority to swing around in his marriage, you can bet he is not himself surrendered to the Lordship of Christ,… Read more »
Thank you, Cameron. I truly do appreciate your response, although I disagree vehemently. The marriage described by the OP sounds horrific to me. I did not make those conclusions about marriage, the OP did. And if you look at the comments on this forum, several others echoed the sentiments. I was responding to that, and you are right. I do think that view of marriage is unhealthy. Fortunately, my view is different and not dictated by Paul. The OP states that men should be the “authority,” that women should be “subject” to their husbands, but the reverse is not true.… Read more »
Did you actually read the article. The point is acknowledging that hierarchical society existed and here are instructions to live as Christians within the accepted culture of the day, it is not promoting the accepted culture of the day as God’s will, but in fact, the Bible illustrates elsewhere that all are equal before God.
I’m no scholar but the Spirit in me said their interpretation and use in our age didn’t line up. Came here looking for info on submission and your comments solidified what the Spirit lead me to believe.
Thank you.
I don’t think that it will be enjoyed by anybody as it
was written or rather rewritten by .old misogynistic
men who were happy to live off women. Early scripture
reveals Jesus actually empowered women not
s ubjugated them. It is not interpreted correctly.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If you do not think he thought of future generations when The Book was written and inspired by him, then why read it? If you believe one part of the Bible you must believe it all and take it literally. I do not know how you have been taught on this subject but I think you are a little skewed on it. Submitting is following trustfully and therefore being submitted back to. Allowing the husband to be a leader in the family and respecting decisions he makes. Upsetting the balance is harmful… Read more »
HiSamantha Thanks for taking the time to post a comment. Yes, God is unchanging but the particulars of his will for us are not. first, the New Testament argues that the Law of Moses was given to guide the behaviour of God’s people up until the coming of Jesus and the Spirit, but we are now guided by the character of Jesus. This is why we feel free to eat shrimp, wear polyester clothing, etc, all of which are forbidden in the Law. Second, our circumstances and cultures change. This means while the character of God remains constant, how we… Read more »
>So Paul asks the question
Paul asks no questions in this book. He gives commands from the Lord to be obeyed.
>The underlying value, in other words, is not leadership and submission, but love, grace, and generosity.
No, the underlying value is authority and submission. The husband-wife relationship is a sacred symbol of the relationship between Christ and the Church. It can not be changed without altering the very foundations of Christianity.
Wow Christopher. Are you seriously equating one’s view of marriage with the gospel?
I don’t know if Christopher is equating one’s view of marriage with the gospel, but I certainly will! Look at Hosea: “The time will come when you will call me, ‘my husband’ instead of ‘my master’ is almost certainly a foreshadowing of our relationship to God through Christ. Throughout the old testament, God calls Israel his stubborn wife. And throughout the new testament, we the saints are referred to as “the bride of Christ”. How can you understand the gospel, that is, the good news of a restored relationship with God, if you can’t properly understand marriage, the single most-drawn… Read more »
So Timothy, because marriage is used as a metaphor for our relationship with God that renders it an unalterable institution? On that logic we should never oppose slavery, for God as master and humankind as his servants is also a widely used metaphor. And while we’re at it there’s no room for democracy or republicanism either, for an even more widely used metaphor is of God as king.
Scott, I think you are hardworking and eager to know the truth in other to liberate others but the truth is not in you, and I don’t think you want to have the truth or be guided by the truth. Paul as inspired by God did not tell us things that will remain mysterious to us or use words we will struggle to understand. God doesn’t need any favour from us and he will tell us what he wills for us as it is or as he wants us to hear it. We don’t need to argue that. In every… Read more »
Based on what authority? His (unsubstantiated) claim that he met Jesus on a road decades after he was dead and that that somehow meant he condo speak for Jesus? No, thanks. I need a bit more than that. And if I am not mistaken, Christianity had been around for a few decades (despite his public attempts to destroy it). Not seeing how HIS letters somehow become the “very foundations” of Christianity. And, frankly, if this is what my church taught (thankfully, it does not), I would not be a Christian. And, as stated, if interpreted in the way you do,… Read more »
No. Christopher, Jesus is Lord and Jesus never subjugated women. Would you advise your daughters to do this. My priest says that Paul’s words were misinterpreted. But I think it was written by some human being about his own understanding of circumstances he viewed
around him. However I think he was just a mysogynists man who worked with early Christian women and was happy to live off them economically and I advise you to view the YouTube video Jesus s female disciples. Also HIS mother is the true CHURCH
Wrong. Christopher, I doubt A Loving Jesus would expect someone to answer to another human being like a relationship based upon slavery, dominance subservience. I can understand it is natural for men to choose to believe this as it is fitting to their agenda. Men generally are not as street wise as women so that has no basis to it. If you are in a relationship and you want to marry somebody if you RESPECT them then you wouldn’t ask them to accept the underdog role. If you respect someone then you won’t expect subservience from ! Anyway the CHURCH… Read more »
In a society in which slavery was legal, Christian slaves were not to rise up and rebel against their masters, to escape from them, or to malinger or pilfer from them, but to serve them dutifully and cheerfully in good conscience.
Christian masters, whether slaveowners themselves or overseers, were to deal fairly with those under their authority.
Christian principles absorbed by the society led to the eventual abolition of chattel slavery. This spread over the world via the British Empire.
“I trust what my husband decides is right and I will follow it.” Every single time? No input or opinion of the wife is valid? So we are lesser beings and not equal in God’s image? We are equally in God’s image and equal in value. God created Adam in His image, put Adam to sleep and took half out and created Eve. Eve is equally created in God’s image. The two halves make a whole together not one over the other. Roles should not be confused with value.
Read more https://scottjhiggins.com/wives-submit-to-your-husbands/
C W M iller,
If it works for you but for an educated person not so. You must have self respect and if he loves you he won’t ask or expect subservience from you.
You must have self respect or your relationship will account for little because you must have self worth or if you don’t it can lead to potentially dangerous and even abusive situations for you. Have confidence in yourself and in your own worth or else
you will never command respect either your husband’s or society’s.
GooSJd luck
The Bible is God inspired and is for all generations, but it is not a literal guide for all generations. It does talk about slavery and directs slaves to obey their masters. this was very relevant when written and honoured God then, but of course, does not now. It does not say ‘boss’, it says ‘slaves’, because in that culture it was normal to have slaves. Paul is saying ‘dont rebel’, not saying ‘go and get a slave because this is God’s will’. Men were told never to cut their hair, women not to wear jewellery etc. That honoured God… Read more »
Oh Jesus, that women should submit is not to say women should be slaves or inferior to their husbands or to be bullied by husbands. No!! the Bible also goes ahead to say that in return for the woman’s submission the man “must” love her. I don’t know what kind of love will be oppressive, abusive, autocratic, unfair, bullying and disrespectful. Love accepts each other’s ideas, support each other, teaches, respects adorable etc, so in a whole God even instructs the man to even go beyond being submissive to his wife by asking him to LOVE the wife. But the… Read more »
Albert
It is precisely this because love is either there or it isn’t. The attitudes of this country are we behind my
own country by about 50 years. You need to have respect and if you have you won’t have those archaic views. Albert respect your wife and then love her
But the women must submit to the husband in everything no matter how he treats her
God bless you Samantha, this was not revealed to you by men but by the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus America still have Bible believing Christians. There can never be two captains authorising a ship. The will be ruin. One must be subject to the other just for the ship to reach its final destination in peace. Don’t be surprised the Bible has said. 2 Timothy 3:1-9. 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. God bless you dear. A bible believing husband will never bully a submissive wife. Rather love, respect and adore her… Read more »
Albert I saw it done all the time but thankfully Jesus didn’t intend it that way. Women shouldn’t accept anything other than equality. If a relationship is not based on equality and then it isn’t a proper relationship If you respect somebody you won’t ask them to be a doormat or take a back seat. What if the woman is smarter? These passages were misinterpreted because Mother Mary is the Church and it means the R.C. Church at that. Women generally have more common sense than men and they are generally more street savey. An honourable man would NEVER expect… Read more »
I saw spousal abuse carried it using this passage as an endorsement. WaKen up women and where is your self worth??????
“Women generally have more common sense than men and they are generally more street savey.”
Was it April Fool’s Day when you wrote this?
Essentially, the way the relationship works is if the wife is dominated by the husband. What grown woman in her right mind would want to enter into such a restrictive relationship — and have no real way out except through fornication, abandonment, or domestic violence? And some in the church believe wives are to supposed to take an awful lot of crap from their husbands without a word — including domestic violence. People, both male and female in the church use certain scriptures as a means of subjugating Christian wives. Because the Feminist movement has entered the church, the submission… Read more »
I always thought submission was abuse to be honest. If a wife has dreams, desires, and goals, her husband should have no right to tell her no. If she wants to work or go to college or not have children that is her right. The Bible really doesn’t care about human rights though. As it advocates putting up with being an abused slave. So of course it advocates marital abuse in marriage calling it ‘submission’. But lots of women like to be treated that way. Where their dreams, desires, and goals a bashed. It’s like some maledom fetish or something.… Read more »
I suppose children should not submit to their parents either… I have respect for your opinions. Thanks for sharing.
Children should not submit to their parents either?
False equivalence. Children are still completely dependent on their parents, and all legal, social and financial obligations that the child incurs becomes the debt of its parents.
The same is not true of wives. It *was* true of wives at the time that the Scripture was written in but it is not today.
Yeah for real..comparing children to an adult EQUALLY created in God’s image! I will not submit to a man who does not submit to God in Spirit and in Truth AND only IN that role will I submit as yield. But if God didn’t want women to have a mind of their own He wouldn’t have given them a mind!
Are you telling us that those passages you mentioned were only to be followed by the first century Christians? It is written that God’s word is settled in heaven forever. His word will never change forever. Furthermore, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Again, there is hierarchy among the angels in heaven. God is not an author of confusion.
What was said was that wives and husbands were to respect and love each other, and always keep the orher’s best interest in mind. The details were examples of how to do that in the society in which they lived at the time. The ways in which we show each other love and respect or work for each other’s best interests are different in a society that has changed drastically in the last thousand years.
Precisely that Augustus and any man who would expect a woman to be treated in an infantile manner like she is subhuman does not deserve any woman. How can you ask this of a person if you’re are dealing with an intelligent educated person?????? Or do you just marry an idiot These passages are confused in translation over several differing languages. In truth they are not the words of a icing Jesus but rather a bunch male misogynistic translators who twisted Christs true words to fit their own agendas. Men might like the idea of being bosses but often/sometimes they… Read more »
If you submit that ‘It’s high time then we got rid of the language of male headship and female submission altogether’, what would you now say of the relationship of Christ and the church? Bear in mind that the relationship of husband and wife is likened to that of Christ and the church.What is certain is that Christ remains the head of the church, the bride, forever.
Hi Augustus, As I read it, Scripture is always an applied word, ie God’s word applied to concrete historical settings. This means we need to separate he underlying values from their cultural application. We then aply the values afresh into our context. my argument is that the underlying value of the biblical household codes is not authority relations but how to express virtues such as love and honour. in a patriarchal social setting such as that of the NT era this was done in accord with the patriarchal social structures of the time. And no, it doesn’t mean getting rid… Read more »
>anymore than being a republican means i can no longer speak of God as king
When you reject God’s viceroy, the monarch, you reject the kingship of God.
>or getting rid of slavery means abandoning the image of myself as a slave of christ.
One can be a slave without owning a slave.
In the USSR women’s “equality” meant they got the formerly men’s only jobs: heavy construction, roadbuilding (and not just directing traffic, like here in the US), the work that most men who did them didn’t like but did because the jobs were available.
Truth because then His Word COULDN’T be the SAME yesterday, today, and forever. We don’t drive the cars that were made 100 yrs ago! A good advice book or Christian book is not going to apply the same today as it did to everyone or 20 yrs ago, but many principles that are presented in such texts are still valid. How much more the bible? Men have free-will to be tyrants? And women don’t have free-will to stand up for themselves as creatures made in God’s image who have value and who God EQUALLY loves. This kind of patriarchal mandate… Read more »
Its dangerous to believe that the truth in Gods word is relative to our culture or to anything else. Truth, by definition, is absolute. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which culture it’s applied in. Even if you feel uncomfortable about it, or if you are confused by it. That being said, we know that our Father is good and so his commands are also good and life-giving. They do not bring bondage as you have portrayed this command as doing for woman. But if you read the scripture and truly understand what it says you would see that… Read more »
Jacob, the truth in God’s word is, in my opinion, not relative to culture but applied to culture and historical particulars. This is why widows are encouraged to marry in 1 Timothy but discouraged from marriage in 1 Corinthians and why women are commanded to cover their heads in 1 Corinthians 11, to give jst two examples.
The “cover head” instruction” in English translation is not about head coverings & NO head coverings at all . The greek shows up in the Instruction to men as well. For women it was unkempt falling down hair as used by prophetesses of the local pagan deities & for men it related to cross dressing immitating the effeminate with falling down hair. ie…long tresses as if a woman. ….. The behaviour of these new believers had to be transformed from prophesy in a pagan manner for the women or acting transgender homosexual within the assembly of believers for men. Look… Read more »
Hi F Jay, The language regarding head coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 is open to interpretation. Some scholars see it as referencing some type of clothing; others see it as referencing hairstyles. The key question is, as you point out, the significance of the practise, which is difficult to establish with any certainty. This is not surprising given we’re talking about determining the significance of particular hairstyles/head coverings in a particular Christian congregation (or congregations) in Corinth somewhere in the mid first century. The understanding you suggest is possible, but is only one of a number of plausible explanations. You… Read more »
I would just like to say that there is a difference between “God’s truth” and someone’s “interpretation of the Bible.” I have a lot of questions about this issue, but I’m inclined to say that the Bible doesn’t give us a guidebook on hermeneutics. If we decide to interpret everything literally and as binding on a modern-day context, we’ve made extra-Biblical hermeneutical moves based on logic and reason. Same goes for any other method of interpretation. My question for Scott is: If there is something inherently wrong with the system of Male headship in a marriage (it seems you’ve implied… Read more »
Hi Noel,
yes I believe there is something seriously wrong with the system of male headship in marriage, just as I believe there is something seriously wrong with masters owning slaves. Why doesn’t Paul liberate Christians from the system altogether? I cannot really do anything but speculate about that, but simply note that he doesn’t. He chooses to infuse slavery and patriarchy with love rather than declaring them wrong. But I believe we should treat his statements about patriarchy the same way we treat his master-slave statements,
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Galatians 3:26-28 ” 26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Oh what a joy it is to see someone who views this scripture the way I have come to understand it. I have felt so alone in my views. Being that you are a man makes me even happier.
One love.
Hahahaaa Ada Abraham’s seed indeed. Sarah was Abraham’s wife who submitted to him even as her Lord. Like the saducees, they asked who will marry a wife given to many brothers in the new life when they resurrected just to justify that there was no resurrection. But Jesus answered ” you are wrong, because you know not the scripture or the power of God. for in the resurrection, they do not marry or are given in marriage”. Matt 22:23-30. Being in Christ is spiritual and there’s no marriage. We are all one spiritually in Christ Jesus. No slave, no free… Read more »
I do not believe we can say submitting and leading are not applicable but I do believe there is a lot of misinformation about it. For one thing the idea that leading means the husband has final say. This is an idea that has be regurgitated for decades and continues to be accepted although it has no basis in truth. A husband is to provide, protect and lead his family spiritually. The wife is to support him in these efforts. A husband who is loving sacrificially (dying to self) will never insist upon having his own way(final say) the goal… Read more »
Well said.
Basic Bible philosophy is a product of Bronze Age thought. Consequently, it is almost exclusively patriarchal. Of the almost three dozen women mentioned in the Bible, perhaps only Esther could be said to play a prominant role. From Genesis through Ephesians, women primarily exist to serve – or, in some instances, service men. Even rape of women is permissible under some circumstances. Spoils of war is a good example in this regard. Women in Bible times usually married at a young age. Mary, the mother of Jesus, may have been either in her late preteens or early teens when she… Read more »
Titus 2: 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. The children are to learn submission and obedience from the mother and authority from the father. Look around you for absolute proof in countless decades of failure and blaspheme of the Word… Read more »
Even today in our Enlightened era women’s “rights” depend entirely upon the good graces of men. Feminists rely on the support of men for every privilege they have obtained.
Women are not in the position of American Blacks. Women, adult women, constitute a majority. Blacks are about 10% of the population. Blacks never have had dominance at the polls and never will even if they all registered to vote, all voted, and all voted in unity, even on ethnic related matters.
Relatively few women vote and those who do vote are hardly unified even on gender related matters.
U know there are women in the black race lol
Do you feel threatened by women’s equality then? Inadequate men usually are!????
The “kingdoms” (regimes) of this world are separated and distinct from the kingdom of God. The laws of Christ for His people cannot be applied to the unbelievers and rebels. They will be held to account for their rejection of the gospel of Christ.
Those who sinned in ignorance will be “beaten with few stripes, while those who sinned wilfully, those who knew right but did not, will be “beaten with many stripes.”
Marx….Jesus is about to come back ….FACT …. then your so called “society’s progress” will stop and God’s Word will be the only relevant thing on your mind….so repent… if you will not then enjoy for your teachings they are about disappear.
And in the new world to come gender, ethnic, and other issues will be left behind.
The solution is easy don’t marry. I really don’t know why most Christian women would even consider marriage. Far better to remain single than to enter into a humiliating Christian marriage. Full of teachings like final say (ie he always gets his way)obey (like you are a dog). Sure they can say even Jesus had to submit, like that is even a comparable comparison. Sure Jesus submitted to a sinless flawless God. Most husband are very far removed from sinless and flawless. To enter into a Christian marriage as a woman is to be subject to a selfish self serving… Read more »
June I know how you feel. As a woman I spent most of my life resenting God for making me a woman and resenting the bible for degrading women (ever noticed that just about every woman in the bible is a whore and every man is a man of God, I mean seriously you can count the number of Godly women on one hand). The God in the bible often sounds like you typical sexist male using religion to keep women “in their place”. I started quetioning whether the words written in the bible are indeed the words of God… Read more »
June, thank you so very much for expressing your feelings so openly and honestly! Your post sounds like something I would have written. I too have trouble dealing with sermons discussing the role of women and wives and also struggle with loving a God that would doom us to a life of subordination based solely on the fact that we were born women instead of men. It’s comforting to know there is someone out there that is struggling with the same things I am.
One thing I always wondered (I left Christianity a long time ago and I now follow Sikhism where women and men are treat equally). But something always struck me odd: Christianity does not believe in reincarnation. Everyone is once born. In Gods eyes we are all equal So if a soul has only one life, how does God choose who gets to be born into a privileged position (as a male) or in the miserable position of perpetual slavery that is female? (or Master vs Slave etc) At least Eastern religions explain it by karmic punishment. A soul is born… Read more »
What you are teaching here is a doctrine of devils! You are undermining the Word of God and teaching rebellion against God!!!
You are a Bible-ignorant Commie Liberal. Go live in the all-one-level society in North Korea.
Very interesting discussion! I am of the opinion that the Bible does not teach egalitarianism. I think the Bible provides a clear social structure, but which seems to have been more applicable then than now. The modern society clearly is headed towards equal rights and opportunities for both sexes, which hardly can co-exist with the structure given in the Bible. It must be a dilemma for many believers. Clearly, many modern empowered women do not subscribe to the dictates of the codes advocated for in the Scriptures! Just that it is difficult for the Church to admit so!
That was a very liberal misuse of the text.
In other words you put modern culture is above God’s will. That’s plainly wrong. The God is what should define the culture, doing it the other way around is the mockery of Christianity.
The Bible gives two very concrete examples – Sodom and Gomorrah. Their culture was modern for their time for the place.
There is nothing to misunderstand about “Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
“In everything” has very clear meaning.
Wow must be nice to be born male then huh? Thank goodness I want born in a female body! That would be hell! Forget hell after death! Biblical hierarchies marriage is hell on earth for women! Seriously can you imagine having to be subject to your spouse in everything? Thank goodness I’m a man and I can be the one in charge! I feel for my poor wife though not being able to have a will of her own once I marry her! Poor Christian women are essentially slaves! How does God choose who gets to be born in the… Read more »
Finally I read something that makes sense to me and does not make women feel like second class citizens. There are other parts of the bible where it is important to understand the context at the time in order to make sense of the passage. Why has this one area about male patriarchy continued and context ignored? It leaves me question some of the intentions of the male preachers. Many men like control and power. This can be a good thing in certain situations – but not in marriages.
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, You cannot submit to God’s word because you love self more than Jesus. You walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit. The Bible is very clear about the roles of husband and wife. A lost world wants to tell God how marriage best functions, really? God’s words are eternal. These are NT instructions for the Church. They are not suggestions. God who is all knowing,… Read more »
John that is an incredibly judgemental comment that completely ignores the history of believers grappling with how we faithfully apply the teaching of Scripture to life today.
Then I guess it is a good thing women have a choice now, and do not have to get (or stay, when there is abuse) married anymore. Cause, again, in the 21st Century, I am not seeing the upside for women of this kind of “relationship.” Can you tell me what that would be?
I read your posting with interest as I am seeking relevance and guidance with my own marriage, one where I did follow the black and white rules of the bible. I moved to the US, gave up all I had and became “one” with my husband’s life and his daughters.. He called all the shots, he was the sole decision maker, I was not allowed children by him, and I lost a part of myself because he lived without recreation or time off. After 16 years he had an affair that went on and off for 2 years, and I… Read more »
Hi Sally,
Thanks for your comment. I am very sorry to hear of your situation. I am not able to tell you what God requires nor to counsel you on what you should do, but would suggest that you do not need to accept your husband’s behaviour nor to submit to his every desire. I would encourage you to seek counselling from a qualified therapist as to the best way forward for you.
Prayers and blessings
Scott
[The last sentence of this reply was altered 30/11/2022 and two comments following it deleted.]
Great post! Have nice day ! 🙂 zuqit
It takes a lot of verbal gymnastics to challenge the New Testament and still call the teaching Christian. To suggest that God taught one thing 2000 years ago but today he has changed his mind to conform with human trends sounds like heresy to me. There is no point drawing comparisons between monarchy and slavery with “patriarchy”. The former are human-made institutions whereas marriage and parenthood are God-made institutions. Whereas the divine teachings within the human-made institutions seek to alleviate oppression, the divine teachings within the divine-made institutions seek to perfect those institutions. Just as the serpent deceived Eve who… Read more »
Hi Don,
1. I am not challenging the New Testament but a common and, I believe,, flawed interpretation/application of it.
2. If you think feminism is the enemy of the family you should spend some time studying history and travelling to traditional societies. The history of marriage includes the sad story of men who dominate, beat and abuse their wives and of women being excluded from public life. It was not the church that changed this. It was feminism.
Genesis 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,[b] she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths….Eve did not trick Adam, she handed him the fruit and he ate it…when GOD confronted Adam about this… Read more »
I don’t believe that Eve “tricked” Adam. I believe Adam willingly took a bite of that apple. I think there must have been something about that tree and/or its fruit that distinguished it from all others — so there was no excuse for Adam or Eve. As far as feminism being the enemy of the family, I’ll say this: Whomever you marginalize in a society and treat with anything other than respect or goodwill, will eventually turn on you in order to remove themselves from under your foot. I don’t understand why people don’t get that. Ephesians 5:28: “So ought… Read more »
It follows from your cultural argument that we would change our tune if we lived in a society that was not egaltitarian. If, for example, we lived in a society in which women or men were treated as animals by their spouses your train of thought would cause us to follow that societal norm rather than the Bibliccal model of Christ and his Church. In fact the bible says clearly “DO NOT be conformed to the standards of this world’ . Neither western egalitarianism so called nor Greek or First century Jewish Culure should inform Christian thinking, Rather we are… Read more »
Hi David, my argument is not that we do whatever our society demands, but rather the opposite, that we seek to infuse our relationships with love, grace and generosity and that we also allow the shape of our institutions to move towards the just trajectory of the gospel.
I was previously Christian, and left because I had difficulty comprehending how people could believe a text written so long ago while analysing the specific verbage and rejecting the contextual nuances. You’re all free to believe whatever of course, I don’t necessarily condemn Christianity, but a little understanding of the context would be very much appreciated.
I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much for writing it.
Hello! While I don’t know whether or not to agree with you concerning this, it has been a step in my walk to figure out this situation. I am young, and I have been a Christian my entire life. God made me a strong woman- a bold woman, even. And then I fell on this part of the scripture, and I can’t help but feel worthless and horrible. Constantly. Because I was born a certain gender. Because of things outside of my control. I have read many of the comments, and many men have been defending the idea that women… Read more »
Hi Samantha, the bible is full of stories of bold and strong women – Deborah, Esther, Naomi, Mary, the female disciples of Jesus, the publicly prominent women and female leaders we get just a glimpse of in the closing chapters of some of Paul’s letters. I agree with you that readings of Scripture that fall short of this and disempower women ought to be found wanting.
Jesus believes in (and quotes frequently) a Genesis-derived model of marriage where the wife submits to her husband. See Matthew 19:8 and Genesis 3:16. Jesus believes that the “old testament” is the word of god. See Matthew 4:4. Additionally, Jesus’s description of his own origin contradicts the idea that “biblical” marriage or submission was merely cultural: Jesus claims that he and his teaching existed even before Abraham was created. See John 8:58. It is incorrect to say that Paul’s concept of “submission” is purely cultural when in fact his concept is simply borrowed from Jesus. Paul’s ideas for marriage are… Read more »
Hi Nelson, thanks for taking time to comment. Jesus certainly appeals to Genesis to show that marriage is instituted by God but I can see nothing in the Gospels that suggests Jesus interpreted the creation stories to say that husbands were to lead and wives to follow.
Then read Matthew 18:9. When Jesus says “it was not this way in the beginning” he is not merely “interpreting creation stories” he is saying genesis is the word of God. (Including genesis 3:16)
Hi David, In Matthew 18 Jesus is speaking about divorce and remarriage. The text has nothing to say to the roles wives and husbands might or might not fulfil in marriage.
You are ignoring the specific verse that I quoted.
Hi David, apologies if I have misunderstood you. Let me try again. As I read your comment you are saying that because Jesu endorses the creation accounts as the word of God that everything in them must be considered the word of the Lord and therefore binding on every generation, including the Lord’s statement that a husband will rule over a wife. I heartily agree that Jesus considered the creation stories to be the word of God but I think it is impossible to claim that this means we simply obey everything the text says. We can’t escape the fact… Read more »
Hi Scott – hope you are well, and thank you for continuing this discussion with me and for maintaining respectfulness, which is a rarity these days. Regarding “the curses of Genesis 3,” from what I read: pain in labor, toil in farming, God is describing the “fallen nature” of our bodies and planet, so I would see these as universal curses, not just for Adam and Eve. I don’t think one needs to “interpret” this particular text because it is obvious to anyone that women suffer greatly during childbirth and that great labor goes into agriculture. Would I regard God’s… Read more »
Hey Nelson, Since you are so keen on telling wives what their awesome duty is to their husbands, let me inject Ephesians 5:25. So if the Scripture really is there fir the wives to obey the word to the letter, then how about you and other men, follow you roles. Do what you are told to do. But you all don’t do you?? So go and spread the word of Ephesians 5:25. That’s powerful Scripture. So are you still following the word? Because you men are so bold and brazen and so bent on throwing words at wives, well just… Read more »
Thanks for sharing Ephesians 5:25! It’s a great verse and you are right there are a lot of hypocritical men. I would caution you about lumping all men in the same boat, or suggesting that mans sinfulness is an excuse to ignore the word of god, it makes your argument less persuasive. Bless you and all the best.
The word says god never changes or his word. It’s interesting that people’s opinions rather then revelation from god is more important. This sounds Very compromising. When eve sinned god said nothing until Adam joined in the sin. The male is responsible for the direction of the relationship. When God called Abram to leave he didn’t talk to Sarah. God was instructing Abram.
Hi Cody, Mmmm, if every bible text applies to believers today in precisely the ways it did to the original audience, when will you start: * forbidding banks to charge interest and insisting that any debt unpaid after 7 years be forgiven; * requiring a widow who has no male child to marry her brother-in-law and have a child by him in her deceased brother’s name; * inviting only those who are poor, disabled, and marginalised to your home for meals and not inviting friends and family; * removing body parts that cause you to sin; * calling for the… Read more »
God gave us a bible to get to know his Son, Jesus. Neither Cody or myself, have to obey cleanliness laws, lending laws, widow laws, slavery laws, engage in polygamy, engage in execution/judgement, because Jesus did a fantastic job of explaining in the four gospels that higher laws exist such as forgiveness, monogamy, debt forgiveness, etc etc. Despite this Jesus also taught that certain rules such as “Honor your mother and father” were expected to be obeyed. He also explains the significance of Genesis when he says “it was not this way in the beginning” and proceeds to describe the… Read more »
https://medium.com/@jesuslovesusall111/should-we-follow-jesus-or-paul-how-about-paul-and-women-c03282eab428?sk=b9d1203509afc47167697bcf17472765
God bless you. husband and wife should love each other and beleive they are one, both are rowing a boat together, one of each side, so the boat will advance in the right direction. I beleive this is the christian marriage
For all men who want headship and authority, learn the christianity from jesus. Jesus said about authority “It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant” Also jesus never used the word submit but love. the marriage will not be Godly by the wife submitting and the man leading. It will be Godly if they both love each other as God loved us Jesus wants our love not submission. so if God asked me to love him and not to submit to him, would he ask me to sumit or love… Read more »
This for me, has been the central issue that has kept me from Christianity. I have for decades, longed in my heart to return to the church, but the passages you speak of insult my Soul to such a degree, I have’t been able to bring myself to return. I believe in the strength and beauty of masculinity, I love masculine men, I don’t think men are “toxic”, I believe there are differences between the genders, but those ugly words that you quote are so abhorrent to me, that I’ve repeatedly thrown aside the church, then returned, lather, rinse, repeat.… Read more »
Hi Juliet,
I’m glad the post was helpful and I hope you are able to find a church where you continue to find belonging to be a breath of fresh, sane, beautiful air!
I have been a Pastor’s wife for the past 32 years. I have allowed my husband to lead the home and church. We are not perfect, but have given each other equal amounts of freedom to go do new things. I am an Aux. Sgt. in the Ohio State Highway Patrol and also work a full time job at an Engineering company. He has Pastored and started a Recovery House for men out of Prison in the lower half of the building we live in. While I have seen scripture greatly abused in church and christian home settings, I do… Read more »
Hi Jami, thanks for taking time to comment. Our lived experience is important and I am pleased that your embrace of distinctive gender roles has been positive. As would be clear from my post I don’t share the conviction that there is a universally God ordained design for gender roles in marriage, but neither do I want to suggest that those who choose to live by such an understanding cannot enjoy delightful, God-filled, grace-filled marriages.
Seminary educated and studied this for 30+ years from all angles. I believe you have hit the meaning spot on. Interpreting the word meanings in Greek/Aramaic/etc… is all well and good to determine the intent of the text. However- That is not what is being discussed here. Word meanings have no correlation as to WHY it was written and the relevance of today. If you believe this is relevant, then you must also contend that slavery is relevant. Neither analogies were meant to be eternally prescriptive. All you have to do is look at how Jesus treated women to know… Read more »
This is an old post. I came across this after reading another post on another site that was advocating for complementary gender roles but in the comments section they also advocated for : not educating women past middle school and women who marry early and are completely dependent on their husbands (like have no property of their own). I have also seen posts that describe abused women not divorcing, but separating to protect themselves while their husbands are counseled by the church. The problem that I see in this thinking is reality. I am currently going through a divorce with… Read more »
Hi Victoria, Thanks for your comment and your observations. Many years ago a psychologist who specialised in areas of marriage and divorce was asked to speak at the church I grew up in. She spoke a sentence that was the beginning of a transformation in my way of thinking about marriage and divorce. She said that “we in the church sacrifice the good of the individuals in a marriage to protect the institution of marriage.” The speaker called for a reversal in our thought and practise, that we should prioritise the wellbeing of the people rather than the institution. In… Read more »